Tag: evil hat

Five or So Questions on Fate of Cthulhu

Hi all! Today I have an interview with Sophie Lagace, PK Sullivan, and Ed Turner about Fate of Cthulhu, which is currently on Kickstarter. I am impressed with some of the changes they’ve made to the Mythos and to Fate for the project, and I hope you do too! Check it out!

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Purple and blue monstrous entities writhing in the background behind the FATE OF CTHULHU title card.

Tell me a little about Fate of Cthulhu. What excites you about it?

Sophie Lagace:  It’s a take on Cthulhu I have not really seen before, where the heroes are seriously out-gunned and out-tentacled, but not hopeless. Maybe you can’t save humanity from an apocalypse, but you can save it from complete extinction, for example. It’s a game about fighting back even when you’re a tiny person against a monstrous evil, giving it all you got and having a chance to make a difference. I can seriously relate, these days.

Also, we acknowledge the glaring flaws in the source material and in H.P. Lovecraft himself, take the good, and reject the bad. I love critical examination of our faves rather than pretending everything is fine

PK Sullivan:  This is the first genuinely hopeful take on the Cthulhu mythos that I’ve seen. That’s something really important to me. Sean Nittner reached out to me in July 2015 asking if I would be the lead designer for this Fate Cthulhu game that Evil Hat wanted to make. My first response was, “Me? Are you sure? I’m not a Cthulhu fan.” Ultimately I think that worked in my favor. Stephen took point on the mythos story while my job was to design a system that reinforced the themes of the mythos. But I need hope in my stories — I made that very clear early on — so Fate of Cthulhu started to lean more toward the good you can do in the timeline

It can still be a pyrrhic victory, or you can still completely screw things up and make the future worse but there’s always the chance, the possibility, the hope that things can be better. And ultimately that’s what you’re trying to achieve as a character: a better future.

Which is surprisingly easy to achieve when the timeline starts as dark as possible.

Ed Turner: Sophie and PK already adequately covered the joys of cosmic horror with a side of hope, so I’m going to be a bit more mechanics-focused: it’s corruption that excites me. As characters deal with phenomena related to the Great Old One, they’ll slowly be corrupted by the sheer wrongness of eldritch forces. Left unchecked, corruption takes the form of horrible mutations. You want claws and tentacles and dripping ichor and other body horror shenanigans? Eat your heart out. Maybe literally… corruption can do weird things.

I love corruption for so many reasons. It’s a way to convey the danger of these alien entities without falling back on tired and problematic notions of “madness.” It’s a way to give players actual hard consequences when things go awry—having a character die is almost never as interesting as having a character’s very humanity get twisted. But more than anything else, it’s a way to empower characters… as bad as corruption is, your new tentacles are also tools in your arsenal, a way you can use the Great Old One’s own malevolence against itself. It ties back to that all-important sense of hope: the worse things get for a character, the better they are able to fight back. As bad as the threat you’re facing is, it contains the seeds of its own destruction.

And of course it means your character can have tentacles. Nothing wrong with more tentacles. The heroes need to even out the tentacle playing-field.

A woman in a wide brimmed hat with long, dark hair in a black and white image.
Sophie Lagace

What is your role in the project, and what did you especially enjoy working on over the course of the project?

SL: I have had three roles. The project stretched on for nearly four years (with almost a year out of that devoted to the playtest rounds), so many things changed along the way. I started on quality control, a sort of sounding board for “Does this thing fit as a Fate game?” Eventually the project management work was rearranged across all Evil Hat products and Sean Nittner asked me to take over project management for this one. And as of almost a year ago, when Lenny Balsera didn’t have time to be Fate Line Developer, I have taken that on as well.

I tremendously enjoyed working (once again!) with top talent, and this will continue with our stretch goal collaborators. On a personal level, I had a flash of elation when, after compiling the mass of data from our beta playtest round, I suddenly realized that we had objective confirmation that we had addressed the problems revealed by the alpha round. We all had a vague, hopeful sense from the comments received that maybe we were on the right track, but it was great to get hard data

PK: I’m the lead designer and I love weird challenges in game design. The first four or five months of design was very collaborative. Sean, Sophie, Stephen, and I (wow, am I the only not-S on the original team?) had a bunch of Skype calls where we hashed out the parameters of the game, both fiction and mechanics. The thing we hit on was that the meat of this game would be in an ever-changing, non-deterministic timeline. Which is hella tricky because we have characters coming from the literal future who know the timeline as a matter of fact.

The first iteration of our timeline mechanisms pretty detached from any role play the characters made. At the conclusion of an event (more or less what we call an adventure) one of the players would get slapped with paradox and suffer terrible visions of the new future they’ve created. This involved a skill check against an epic difficulty that was almost sure to cost resources (Fate points, etc.), followed by rolling four Fate dice with modifiers based on how well that skill check went. If the player had been able to shake off time’s assault just fine, then they got to improve dice. If they blew that defense roll, then one of the dice was guaranteed to be a negative. The dice result became the new rating of the event the players had just completed (more or less how badly it screws humanity) and those dice rippled out to the other events in the timeline. This did two things: it gave the characters valuable information about the new state of the timeline and made sure no one could game the system for the best result.

Playtesters hated it

So I had to go back to the drawing board. I redesigned the timeline mechanisms so that the heroes and the squamous horrors of the void are competing on a track for changes to the timeline. As those rack up, ripples get made across the other events. But! Now it’s up to the GM to interpret what those ripples mean. This was a really clever solution to a problem I didn’t know we had. I was leaning too hard into the action element of the action-horror stories we set out to tell. By making the timeline changes a GM element, while giving them tools and guidance to convey those changes to the players in thematically appropriate ways, the uncertainty that players faced dramatically increased. Uncertainty is key to horror stories. We need to keep the players in a state of imperfect information, even if other Fate games rely on perfect information.

That was the biggest challenge in the game and one I hope goes over well. Fred and some of the early readers have really responded to the condensed, concise Fate Core rules set I’ve put together for the game. The first stretch goal was to put that into the Fate Core SRD so people can build their own Fate games using those 50 pages of rules. That’s very flattering. I really hope people build tons of great games off this chassis I put together. It would be the greatest reward so far in my game design career.

ET: I got pulled into the project relatively late, to help get it ready for the second round of playtests, and after that I was part of the writing team. In practice, most of my energy went into the detail work: example text, spells and rituals, corruption stunts, things of that nature. Whenever you see a list of things, I probably had a hand in it. It’s not easy to pick a favorite part—by the time I started working on the project, the core of it had already come more-or-less together. It meant that I was given a wonderfully ghastly playground to explore.

Perhaps my favorite part was helping to finalize the timelines themselves. Stephen wrote some wonderful apocalypses, which are just an absolute delight to read; my job involved statting up the NPCs and horrible monsters that populate his world. In short, getting them ready for a GM to pick up and throw at their players, while still being as weird and scary as Stephen envisions. It’s a fun challenge.

A dark haired man in a collared shirt on a brown background.
Ed Turner

What are the unique challenges of a timey wimey affected game? You’ve talked about the timelines – what do those mean to the players?

SL: For one thing, it means being able to play some pretty unusual characters, whether by having corruption aspects and stunts, or by confronting temporal paradox. We had playtester groups who reported that some of their members played different versions of the same character, and that seemed to generate a lot of fun moments for them.

For another, it means that the heroes will be dealing with high stakes; for example, if you can’t change the timeline, you have not the possibility but the certitude that everyone you ever cared about will suffer a horrible, ah, fate.

Finally, the fact that a group can tackle any of the four key events in a timeline in any order in turn makes each story truly unique to that group. It’s likely that two gaming group taking on the same timeline and Great Old One will have a very different narrative, so replay value should be good.

ET: It means that players and GMs alike will be contending with an interesting juxtaposition of knowledge and uncertainty. The timeline gives players many, though not all, of the essential details about what they’ll encounter during an event, but their actions ripple forward, changing subsequent events. The knowledge they were so sure of at the outset grows less and less helpful as time goes on. And it gives the GM room to really mess with players’ expectations.
Of course, that does also suggest part of the challenge: rationing out that change. PK pointed out earlier that uncertainty is key to horror stories, but uncertainty requires a solid baseline, otherwise things change so rapidly that they stop being unsettlingly wrong and start being pure static. In other words, the GM can’t mess with players’ expectations if things get so chaotic that the players don’t have any expectations anymore. Timelines, and the timeline track, help contain that chaos, so players will always know more-or-less what’s going to happen, but can be shocked by the details.

PK: The biggest challenge was finding a way to have timeline actually matter. We decided early on that a timeline would play a significant role in the game. That’s why the whole structure of Fate of Cthulhu is built around the timeline. When I started mucking about with possible timeline systems, I realized that for it to work it needed to do two contradictory things: the players have to know the timeline and the timeline has to change and shift. From there it was a tightrope to walk of having the changes be unpredictable and Lovecrafting while letting the players feel like they earned the changes to it.

How did you approach making an inclusive game in something that most marginalized consider volatile, the Lovecraftian mythos, both mechanically and in the fiction and in presentation of the game rules?

SL: It was clear from the first moment that to make this a game which Evil Hat could publish, we would have to face the true monsters in the Lovecraft story. It just would not have been compatible with our mission to gloss over racism, ableism, and other -isms.

It may be tacky but I’m going to toot my own horn here regarding the concept of sanity: I was the first to suggest a corruption mechanic and the high cost of facing the horrors being the slow transformation into a monster yourself. I’m very fond of RPGs that ask the question “What are you willing to sacrifice in order to succeed?” instead of just “Will you succeed?” I think it’s central to Fate, a game where PCs have lots of resources to draw on in order to achieve goals.

That said, I’m certain someone else would rapidly have come up with the corruption idea, but I felt good about being the one to pull it out of an evil hat.

ET: I think Sophie really hits the nail on the head: getting rid of the tired and thoughtless treatment of “sanity” pulls a lot of weight. I think it also helps to be absolutely explicit when we call out Lovecraft’s bigotry. It’s so commonly elided over, or dismissed as being a product of its time. And that’s no good… his writings often, and with varying levels of subtlety, other real-world groups, and that’s something we don’t want to lazily perpetuate.

And of course, we can’t forget the contributions of our sensitivity reader, Misha Bushyager. Sensitivity consultation is great idea in general, but on something like this, it’s invaluable.

A bearded man in a cap and black jacket, looking to the side and smiling.
PK Sullivan

How is Fate of Cthulhu different from other experiences in Fate, from your perspective? What do you hope people enjoy in the variation?

SL: I think it puts in doubt whether you will achieve success like no other Fate game we’ve released before. Also, there are not that many role-playing games that provide mechanical support to allow time travel and changing the future, and I don’t know of any other based on the Fate engine. In fact, most time-travel RPGs I know of have a lighter tone: TimeWatch (Pelgrane Press), Doctor Who (FASA, Cubicle 7), Time & Temp (Dig a Thousand Holes Publishing), etc.. On the other hand, Fate of Cthulhu can have funny moments, but it’s not meant to be played for laughs

ET: The timelines give the game a very strong narrative superstructure; there is a very clearly defined end point that you are building to: eventually the moment of the Great Old One’s rise will arrive, and it’s on you to be ready for it. It means there’s a grand finale always on the horizon, which gives the campaign an ongoing sense of pace… the characters might not know what the best next step is, but it’s impossible for them to lose sight of their greater goal. It’s not the very first Fate game to do something like this; Uprising has a built-in narrative arc leading to an end point. But Fate of Cthulhu pushes the concept even further, diving really deep into the short, focused campaign concept. I also hope that people take advantage of the focused, relatively brief campaign by going through multiple apocalypses. Not only by re-trying a timeline, hoping to get a better result with the next iteration, but by trying out the variety of timelines in the book and coming out as stretch goals from the Kickstarter.

PK: Most Fate games have characters change laterally, sometimes gaining in power but only in small doses. Because a given campaign is really just four adventures — four events on the timeline — and a denouement in the form of the final event Rise of the Great Old One, we actually put advancement on the fast track. PCs get a new skill every milestone. But… that’s tempered by the corruption mechanisms. This is the only Fate game I know of where you can end up in a mechanically reinforced spiral of self-destruction. Corruption stunts offer you great power but at the cost of further corruption. Not to mention many of the horrors you’ll face can push you down that path, as well. It’s another interesting dichotomy where characters can get very powerful very fast but also just wind up taking themselves right out of play by getting too dark.

One last question! If you could be in the Fate of Cthulhu world, what would you most want to do and see? What would be the wildest adventure you could want?

PK: Is it a cop out to say I don’t want to go there? We made the worst future! Futures! There are five of them! They’re all completely terrible. War, plague, famine, pestilence, and unending subjugation await anyone who lives long enough to see the future. If I had to be someone in Fate of Cthulhu, I think I’d want to be a modern day mystic. Maybe someone who has visions of the future. Being haunted by nightmarish visions of things yet to be is about the most chill thing you can be in this world.

SL: I’m with PK! But I would want to see success in avoiding a cataclysm, righting things to the point where humanity can build a better future. So, ++++ on the timeline!

ET: Yeah, there’s definitely no great place in the Fate of Cthulhu world. But I dunno, I think the Dagon timeline might be pretty okay? I mean, assuming you survive the horrible transformation into a Deep One. Sure, you’d suffer eternal subservience to a giant paranoid fish-monster at the bottom of the ocean, but you’d get to breathe underwater, and that’s pretty cool. That’s about as good a trade-off as a Great Old One is going to offer.

Old ones encroaching on a city, all tinged in green, passing a billboard that's been vandalized with anarchy symbols, and someone riding past on a motorcycle with a helmet and rifle. The title FATE OF CTHULHU is on the image with the subtitle "The stars are right for Great Cthulhu's Return. It's up to you to make them wrong again."

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Awesome! Thank you so much to Sophie, PK, and Ed for the interview! I hope you all enjoyed it and that you’ll check out Fate of Cthulhu on Kickstarter today!

Five or So Questions with Eric Vogel on the Dresden Files Cooperative Card Game

Hi Everyone! Today I have an interview with Eric Vogel, the lead designer on the Dresden Files Cooperative Card Game, a new product coming from Evil Hat via Kickstarter! The game caught my eye because it’s a cooperative game, which (I may have previously mentioned) is my preference, but is hard to find! I love coop games but card games make me hesitant, so I wanted to know more about the design and the motivation behind the product. Check out Eric’s answers below, and check out the Dresden Files Cooperative Card Game on Kickstarter!

Tell me a little about the Dresden Files Cooperative Card Game. What excites you about it?

DFCO is a true cooperative game, with all players working as a team to defeat the game itself. There is no traitor mechanic, etc. The players take on the roles of Harry Dresden, the wizard PI, and a group of his friends & allies trying to solve mysteries and defeat the different villains from the novels. A single game lets you play through 1 novel of the series, although the game also includes a random scenario generator for variety. The players share a common pool of action points, that they alternately spend and contribute to. The game typically comes down to a “showdown” phase in which the players get a series of final die rolls to try to solve the outstanding cases, and defeat the outstanding foes. If they have solved more cases than there are surviving foes left on the board, they win. Otherwise, they lose.

I think what was most exciting for me during the design process was getting to represent the Dresden Files characters and events in game form. Its an incredibly rich world – which is a great resource and really challenging at the same time. I really enjoy the books, and I want to embody them well in the game. At the same time, I wasn’t trying to make a 6 hour game with tons of chrome, and excruciating amounts of detail that only a handful of hardcore gamers who were also hardcore Dresden fans would ever want to play. It was an exciting game challenge to hit the right level of abstraction to achieve thematic feel while making a game that was accessible to all the Dresden constituencies: board gamers, RPG players, and just fans of the novels.

Now its super exciting to see how excited the Dresden fans are getting about DFCO. Its really taking the buzz to a new level. We got a lot of attention at GAMA. Did that answer your question?

It did! What motivated you, from fiction and audience, to make this a cooperative game, considering the popularity of competitive games?

When Evil Hat commissioned the game from me, they specified that they wanted a cooperative game from me – so it was not a choice I made. I’ll be honest, that was not initially something I was happy about. I had not designed a cooperative game previously, and I was not a big fan of them at that time. I had done some game development work on someone else’s cooperative, and I felt like I had given them most of the lingering ideas I had for how to do a cooperative game. So I ended up starting from zero, doing a lot of playing co-ops as research, and making a lot of false starts before I finally came up with the core mechanics of DFCO. You may get to glimpse some of those false starts when I publish the prototype history for DFCO in a Kickstarter Bulletin – something that has become kind of a tradition for me and EHP now. Anyway, in the process I discovered that there are several co-ops I really enjoy, and I figured out what it is I don’t like about some co-ops. I had previously believed that I had a fundamental objection to the lack of competition, but it was really more the lack of the ability to make an individual contribution to the success or failure of a challenging task, in an interactional context. So I made sure DFCO had that in spades. So now I have a whole new genre of game that I enjoy playing! that was a nice side benefit. I don’t know if I will design any more co-ops after this one or not. If DFCO is a hit, I will probably encounter demand for them. However, I really don’t like repeating myself, so I would need an idea for a co-op that was fundamentally mechanically different from DFCO.

DFCO uses the Fate system elements, which is really cool. What have you done with the game to meld the Fate system tools into a card game?

It probably mirrors or represents those elements more that it literally uses them. I am not an RPG player, and I am not terribly knowledgeable about RPG mechanics. However, the “ah-ha” moment of the DFCO design came out of me reading the Fate Accelerated rules (which I found a lot more accessible than most RPG rules) and seeing a way to represent the Fate mechanics in card game mechanics, starting with the basic actions of Fate Accelerated: Attack, Overcome, etc. There are also mechanics in DFCO derived loosely from troubles and stunts. I experimented with reflecting the Fate system at a more nuanced level,using concepts like approaches, but I found that was too high a level of detail for the design I wanted to execute. There was even a phase in which I was trying to create a kind of generic Fate System cooperative card game, but I soon moved away from that and refocused on making the game reflect the specifics of the Dresden Files. Still, the game has action types that will be mostly familiar to Fate RPG players, it uses Fate Dice, and players both spend and generate Fate points. 

What kind of challenges did you encounter with applying the fiction of Dresden Files to a Fate and card game format, without losing the feel of the novels and characters?

In my day job as a professor of clinical psychology, one of my specialty areas is qualitative research. When you do qualitative analysis, the key challenge is to find the right level of abstraction. If you abstract too much, you lose the key meanings in the raw data. If you abstract too little, your analysis is convoluted, muddled, and doesn’t provide clear understanding. It is a similar task when you need to represent a series of novels with a card game. Too much abstraction, and the game doesn’t feel like the source material anymore. Too little abstraction, and it isn’t a very accessible game – its the kind of game only certain gamers want to play. The Dresden Files novels appeal to a wide audience, so I thought the game should too. You can never strike the perfect balance for everyone, but hopefully I struck the best balance for the widest audience. Time will tell.


During playtesting and from player feedback, what were the pieces of positive feedback that made you have an “I’ve got this!” feeling?

I don’t think the game really came together until I added the “talent” mechanic, which is a character specific-power that players get to use whenever they discard a card to generate Fate Points for the team. That made all the turns fun, and added a key decision point that gave the individual players more responsibility for the team’s strategy. Once that was in place, what I observed was a change in the character of the discussions players were having during the game. In my least favorite co-ops, one player tends to act as leader and dictate a course of action to everyone else; its natural enough that happens, its an inherent aspect of group dynamics. But I found that the players in DFCO were having a much more interactional discussion about how to play; they weren’t just acting independently, and they were not just deferring to the judgement of one player. That was when I knew I was onto something.


Awesome! Thanks Eric, so much, for answering my questions about the Dresden Files Cooperative Card Game! I’m excited to see another coop game on the market, and it sounds like a lot of people will have a great time with this one. Check out the new game on Kickstarter!




This post was supported by the community on patreon.com/briecs.

Five or So Questions with Fred Hicks on Evil Hat Crowdfunding

In the indie publishing scene, there are some companies trying out new business models for funding and production. One recent model is being implemented by Evil Hat, the company behind Fate Core and the Dresden Files RPG.  When Evil Hat’s most recent Kickstarter pulled in over 7 times its original goal, I knew I had to find out more. I spoke to one of the main guys at Evil Hat, Fred Hicks, who gave some insight into the company’s plans for using crowdfunding for game releases and supplements.

Tell me about the model for Evil Hat’s crowdfunding plans this year. What inspired the development, and what excites you about moving forward?

When we were reviewing how the company did financially in 2015 — good, stable, nothing to be worried about, but not particularly stellar when compared to our best years — we realized that we had fatigued a bit on running crowdfunds and then had let that conceal how much crowdfunding was a component of our budget in our best years.

We’re past the fatigue now, and based on past performance, we figure our good average number of big crowdfunds (not counting the ongoing Patreon) is two per year. With one in 2015, we decided 2016 would be where we play catch-up and aim to run at least three. (Honestly we could probably do four, but that fourth is for a card game and those can be a bit “grindy” if you don’t have a lot of fire and heat on them, so we need to do our big, definite fire-and-heat card game KS this year and see how that affects our audience & presence in the board & card game category. Also our fantastic backers might shoot us if we try to do four in one calendar year, so best to move that possibility to 2017, for now.)

The Kickstarter we’re running right now — ending in about 24 hours from the time I’m saying this, mid-day on February 10th — is Fate More: From Bits to Books. This is “Fate More Part 1”, which is to say we’ll be running a “Fate More Part 2” KS later. These could have been combined to make a single campaign, but we came to realize that we had two separate groups of things we wanted to do with a sequel-to-Fate-Core campaign, and getting the two halves to play well with each other in one campaign would have been tricky. (More on that in just a bit.)

There’s also a concern, I think, with making sure we don’t ask too much of our backers at one time, and that we avoid aiming too high on a “sequel” campaign. I’ve seen time and again that follow-up campaigns often don’t pull nearly as much as the original one, and Fate Core’s was positively stratospheric.

As it happens, Fate More: From Bits to Books (I’m gonna just start saying FM1 from here on out) has done really well vs. its goals — we’re reaching towards $60k right now, and will probably end at least in the mid-$60k range, if yesterday’s performance continues. But it’s not Fate Core’s $433k, and some folks in the middle of the campaign talked about how that wasn’t a success for Fate More. I heartily disagree! Our base funding goal for two books, and three additional books beyond that, have already been hit, and I was honestly only aiming at the first four books as reasonably-sure. We got there pretty early on. The remaining three books — hardcover compilations of Worlds from our Patreon project — were more of a question mark, a “do people actually want this sort of book?” query meant to be answered by the backers’ choices. And that means any range of possible answers are “correct” and good for our intended goals, whether that answer is “nope, don’t do the compilations” or “holy shit PLEASE DO THEM”.

So we’ve already been well past our victory conditions for the campaign for a few weeks now, back in the $35-40k range. 🙂

At any rate, FM1 is all about taking our digital stuff that’s ready to go to print, and getting it into print. This includes a few new releases, as well as pre-existing, already-released-in-digital content. I prioritized and ordered the stretch goals such that the new releases came first, and like I said, folks just blasted right through those. Folks like new. Plus, by focusing in on stuff which was ready or nearly-ready to go to press, we’d have a very short time period between the KS funding and getting those books shipped — we expect to have them in backer hands by June at the latest, with the titles hitting distribution early into Summer. In this sense, FM1 is “Fate Now”, the stuff that we’re focused on delivering to people in the present, that we want to see in print, on shelves, this year.

Fate More Part 2 (FM2) is the one that looks forward, to the future. It’ll have a stronger new-digital-content focus and will ask more questions that our backers will help us answer. FM2’s focus will be on kicking off new projects, and expanding the overall Fate Core line in some new directions. We’re still firming up exactly what that looks like (with some projects already underway, because it’s good to have something ready to give to backers at launch), so please forgive my vagueness here. 🙂 We’re aiming to make FM2 happen in the Summer.

But between those two campaigns is our April-or-May one, that may be the big one this year if we can reach the right people: we’re going to be crowdfunding the printing and expansion of the Dresden Files Cooperative Card Game. You can read more about it on our website — I’ve played and demo’d the game dozens of times, and it’s tense, fun, and really serves the Dresden Files fans well. We’re in the middle of getting art done for the cards, which is the main hold-up at this point, aside from the usual KS preparations — a campaign video, a teach video, polishing and editing the rulebook. This is probably the campaign I’m the most scared about — in a fun-scared sense — simply because I don’t know how big it could go, or how fast, or how well we’ll connect with the novels’ fans, backers, and boardgame fans. I’ve got a lot of hope, there. We’ve put out a series of solid card & board games over the past couple years, but we’re not really on the map yet. This one has a chance to put us on the map. Maybe even light the map on fire. We’ll see!


What are the biggest challenges you’ve encountered, from a business and marketing perspective, for promoting this project plan and getting the wheels on the ground, so to speak?

Expectations, possibly. Fate Core’s KS sets a high bar, and the Fate-focused backer-audience might be expecting us to clear that kind of crazy thing every time. But that KS was a special snowflake; I think Fate More’s performance is the calmer, saner, and more typical one between the two, and that’s just fine. But Fate Core’s KS is also why we have a 10,000-member mailing list we can promote the new Kickstarter to. So in that sense, we’re already well past finding our core audience, marketing-wise, for Fate stuff. And we got that audience back in 2013 for Fate Core because we’d spent ten years (!)building the Fate audience and community in the first place. So a lot of the challenges you’re talking about are really hurdles that we’ve cleared in the past.

There’s also a communications dimension to this sort of thing that’s a little challenging. I’m hugely transparent in how I run the business — Jeff Tidball would say (!)pathologically transparent, and that’s a fair cop — but that doesn’t mean that people automatically understand the business reasons and dynamics that go into parceling out the things we want to do (to push Fate forward) into two separate KS campaigns.

FM1 is heavily focused on print, but a lot of our audience is very digitally oriented, so I think some folks have felt a bit confused, and it was important to get out in front of that and both talk about how FM2 is going to be more for them,and make sure that to the extent FM1 has a digital component, that it is at least somewhat compelling to them.

I think I managed it, tho it wasn’t really until the announcement of our “Extra Goals” in the middle of the campaign (which focus on releasing more of our content into open licensing) that I really hit the right spectrum-breadth for our digital fans. It’s nuts: for a heavily print-focused campaign, half of our Fate More backers are only in at the digital tiers. But while they’re 50% of the population, they’re only about 15% of the revenue at last count; print is still king as far as money-making goes.

Can you talk a little bit about how this crowdfunding project plan meshes with the Patreon funding and development?

Patreon has been about funding the development of the Fate Worlds of Adventure content, but not the manufacture. The Patreon paid for the writing, editing, development, and the biggest cost, art. But that’s all it could cover. Putting that content into a physical book costs as much or more than all of those costs combined, at least at our scale. (Print on demand is another matter, but I’m often unsatisfied by print on demand for color interior books.)

So Fate More: From Bits to Books is the manufacture portion, as far as the Patreon content goes (it’s also the manufacture portion as far as some digital-only Fate Core KS content goes, with Do and Young Centurions). And there, we’ve chosen to go for compilation books, four worlds in each hardcover volume, rather than the individually printed softcover worlds we did for Secrets of Cats, Save Game, Aether Sea, and Romance in the Air haven’t managed to see sales strong enough to justify the relatively minor cost of printing them. I really love the format — $10 softcovers, 40ish to 60ish pages, full color interiors — but the market hasn’t really responded. Could be twofold, and the funded volume(s) from the KS will help us figure out if that’s a format-driven lack of interest (do our fans want more stuff in one book? do they want their color interiors to have hard covers?), or a general lack of interest in adventure/light setting content beyond the digital market.

What do you think are some of the key items leading to continued success with both this Kickstarter and your products related to Fate in general?

It’s those ten years I mentioned earlier. We started growing the Fate community — almost accidentally, but we were doing it! — just past the turn of the century. During that time up to 2013, there wasn’t any Evil Hat originated for-pay Fate book; just Spirit of the Century and, eventually, the Dresden Files RPG, following an earlier-edition digital-only free PDF generic version.

By the time we got ten years deep we had plenty of pent up demand in the community for a core, setting-free Fate book. And that gave us momentum enough to make the Fate Core KS huge and then carry past that into the market at large.

Being able to get out there with Fate-related stuff, like our Fate Dice line, has really helped too, in terms of smoothing out the company’s revenue stream. Fate Dice sell very steadily and fill in some of the gaps that book-driven releases can’t.

And there’s the Patreon, which has let us produce a steady stream of digital releases even in years where we put out very few physical products (hello, 2015).

We’ve continued our commitment to open content too, which has helped create some Fate focused opportunities for third party publishers out there.

And finally, when we run our KSes, we have our eye on creating products that outlive their Kickstarters.

For one, it’s easy to fall into a trap where the Kickstarter is such a good deal, nobody’s really motivated to seek out the product without the Kickstarter involved. We don’t do early bird specials in the reward tiers, or really any kind of discounting on the products; we sell them at the price they’d sell for in a gamestore. That preserves good retailer relations and makes sure we don’t undercut the value of our product.

We also make sure to focus on producing excess inventory we can sell in distribution, but funded by the campaign; that makes sure we’re in a fairly low risk footing when it comes to the post-KS discovery of whether or not we reached 25% or 100% of our potential audience through the campaign. There’s no way to really assess that aside from shipping your stuff and hoping it sells. Smart budgeting: it’s a thing.

With Fate Core, I managed to size our printables such that I printed roughly double of what the Kickstarter population demanded of each product (tho sometimes that multiplier was higher simply b/c there’s a minimum number of copies I wanted to print of any one given thing so I can spread it around usefully in distro). So that meant I ended up shipping up to half of what I printed, and had half left over to sell through distro, with the KS’s funding of each print goal covering the total print cost of that item.

Worked out pretty well — and concentrated and excited enough of our audience that we’ve even had to go into reprintings of Core and Accelerated in the time since the KS.


How have you worked internally with your teams to really build a solid concept of how this program will work and get them all on board? After all, if you can’t get your people on it, getting customers on it could be even harder.

I presume I am not the smartest guy in the room, and surround myself with people who are smarter than me in their areas of specialty. I make sure to learn from every mistake and listen to my smartfolks’ advice, especially when they’re telling me that I’m doing something wrong or that we need to shift focus. One of the earliest bits of advice I got from Chris Hanrahan, the first smart person I brought on board, was something he told me to do during the Fate Core KS’s insane explosion of activity and funding: get a project manager.

That brought in Sean Nittner, and Sean proceded to make sure we got our shit organized. That let me continue to pursue the things I do best for the business, while someone else was entirely focused on making sure that projects happened, that vision was defined and examined up front on every project, and then communicated to each projectmember at kickoff. And let me tell you, compared to me on that sort of thing, Sean is a super genius and I am… somewhere around a field mouse in terms of intellect. The guy gets how to make a team work on a level I never really did. If I’d been clever enough to get him on board five years earlier, the Dresden Files RPG probably would have come out in 2008 instead of 2010.

At any rate, it means that I don’t have to examine (and be responsible for) process; I can focus on implementation. And so can everyone else. Project managers, like editors, are worth their weight in gold. No, gold’s too cheap. Platinum? Something radioactive? I dunno. A lot.

Chris and Sean have made more recommendations since — including bringing on Carrie Harris as our head of marketing, another soooper genius — and I’ve done my best to follow every one of them. It’s too bad these folks don’t play a sport like they help me run the company, because they’d be at the top of their game and making bank.

(Lest you think I’m leaving him out, Rob Donoghue, my co-founder, remains involved as well, but with life distractions and a day job and so forth his job at Evil Hat is more about safeguarding the soul of the company and making sure we keep in mind what we should do along all the stuff we’re figuring out we can do. That, and nothing I’ve ever done with Evil Hat would’ve been possible without his support and encouragement. You know. Little things.)

Anyway, vis a vis your question, I think what all that amounts to is that I’ve focused on working with these guys to make sure we really have our shit together at the top/leadership level of the company. Poor leaders make for unhappy or unengaged or confused freelancers and that’s a recipe for poor products and a general lack of enthusiasm.

Plus, I pay people on time, very quickly, and at the time they get their work done rather than making them wait for when the thing they wrote (or whatever) sees publication. Because that’s just the right damn thing to do. 🙂 (Note from Brie: This is true! Evil Hat pays on time, quickly, and fair wages. A+!)

Is there anything else you’d like to share about this project that would give people insight into the spirit of the idea?

Insight into the spirit, hmm. Well, going into this, I knew we were taking on a challenge of sorts. The Fate audience is growing, but it’s probably really composed of several smaller overlapping groups divided up (tho “divided” really feels like an over-strong word there) into clusters around preferred product formats, preferred product types. I knew we weren’t aiming the campaign at all of those clusters equally. I tried to touch on each of them — something for the digital fans, the open content fans, etc — but it was primarily for the folks looking to put some new books on their gaming shelves, the bibliophiles. I’m really proud of how it has performed given that challenge, because it’s clear that the fans who weren’t as well-served were still quite willing to show up and lend their support. It’s my hope that Summer’s Fate More 2, the future-directions-focused one, shifts the balance around a bit and satisfies those who weren’t as engaged by this one. FM1 gave us a great start to 2016; FM2 will come around in time to give us a big boost through the rest of the year and heading into 2017. If they all work out pretty well, we may have a solid pattern for us to repeat in the years beyond as our catalog continues to grow. Lots of question marks ahead: I’m excited to start answering them, with a little help from the fans. 🙂


Thanks so much to Fred (and Evil Hat!) for sharing the perspective and plans for Evil Hat‘s future with crowdfunding! There is a lot here that could be valuable for new developers and publishers, so I hope everyone enjoys it. You can find more on Evil Hat’s games on their website, and Fred’s regular thoughts on gaming and development on his blog. 

This post was supported by the community on patreon.com/briecs.